tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post7305262604747052047..comments2024-02-20T22:17:21.542-08:00Comments on Will Finn Blog: Observations on Story: Of Villains and VillainyWill Finnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01297122976077620877noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post-28936391758120132212008-12-01T16:09:00.000-08:002008-12-01T16:09:00.000-08:00no edwin, a gamer i am not. nothing against it, bu...no edwin, a gamer i am not. nothing against it, but i just don't have the hours to spare. when i do, i'd rather read, boring as that sounds.Will Finnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01297122976077620877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post-16619548362014960592008-12-01T14:50:00.000-08:002008-12-01T14:50:00.000-08:00A lot of this talks about movies and novels. Not ...A lot of this talks about movies and novels. Not much of gamer, are ya? Video games are actually FILLED with various great villain and internal struggles among protagonists.Ud the Imphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12881133672939817125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post-24519190775893126762008-11-21T15:09:00.000-08:002008-11-21T15:09:00.000-08:00Hey Will! Great article! As you know, "Hunchback" ...Hey Will! Great article! As you know, "Hunchback" was my very first movie, and I had a lot of fun and learned a LOT, particularly from you, sir!John S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03562963042584020477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post-51437678233041519432008-11-19T06:55:00.000-08:002008-11-19T06:55:00.000-08:00Brilliant observations! Jungle Book has always bee...Brilliant observations! Jungle Book has always been one of my favs, too (along with Lady & the Tramp). When I was a kid I always thought of Bagheera as a villain, too. I guess that's because I identified so much with Mowgli and enjoyed Baloo. Bagheera is the main obstacle to Mowgli's goal. Well, that's the interpretation of a 5-year-old mind. Your explanation holds a lot more water.<BR/>In that animated films (for the most part) are made for the whole family, and have to be 'getable' by preschoolers, too, villains tend to be the black hat wearers. It's just sad that most execs now assume that's the only way to tell a good story. These guys never understood that Goldilocks is a villain, and Baby Bear is the most sympathetic character in the whole story.<BR/>When I showed "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" to my kids, I had a great discussion with them as to who the villain was. They assumed it was Cpt. Nemo at first, until we started discussing his motives. That conversation opened up the subjects of civil disobedience, vigilantism, and when are they right and wrong.<BR/>Nemo is basically a terrorist. A man who has been much maligned by society and is taking his revenge on the Western world to end the inhumanity he sees. He has hired a group of sailors who have all signed a suicide pact. In the end, the villain turns out to be the ones who have been hunting him. <BR/>Your thoughts?Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06514942808999120095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post-44803893833678402762008-11-11T17:19:00.000-08:002008-11-11T17:19:00.000-08:00Excellent post, Will.And, let me add that my time ...Excellent post, Will.<BR/><BR/>And, let me add that my time working on “The Hunchback of Notre Dame” was truly enjoyable. Maybe it’s because we had a great Head of Story. Thanks for allowing me to be part of your team.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your defense of “The Jungle Book.” Vance Gerry and I often talked about our work on that film. However, don’t give us too much credit. A lot of the work was done by the world’s greatest story editor, Walt Disney.<BR/><BR/>Seems I’ve worked on more projects than I can remember, and I still feel like I’m a novice when it comes to story.Floyd Normanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08635960964922892254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post-42215304372098169722008-11-10T10:59:00.000-08:002008-11-10T10:59:00.000-08:00“Too often I have met inexperienced story people a...“Too often I have met inexperienced story people and writers who have read many more books about writing than they have read actual books with great writing in them”<BR/>--Excellent point! The same goes for buying books about how to make cartoons, without watching any of the classics.<BR/><BR/>I agree with all you said about the Jungle Book, It's my favorite Disney movie, it's all up to the characters. Not establishing ultimate heros and and villains at the very start gives a free will approach. In real life there aren't clear cut heros or villains, which makes it more adventurous, or difficult, depending on your point of view. treating a story this way makes it more organic and less predictable.<BR/><BR/>When people raise a comment like “too episodic” it’s blank in content and upsetting. <BR/>I like stories with an episodic nature, like you said they are testing the character, and if the character is strong, and the episodes are interesting, the movie can be very enjoyable. This reminds me of “The Big Lebowski” and makes me think back to your previous point, about getting ideas from real stories, in this case “The Big Sleep”.Amir Avnihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06878436029210223623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post-7052932093199764592008-11-10T05:00:00.000-08:002008-11-10T05:00:00.000-08:00QUite an excellent post. We seem to be living in a...QUite an excellent post. We seem to be living in a good guy vs bad guy era. Even our President (no much longer) created the "Axis of Evil" deciding who were wearing black hats in the world. Unfortunately, everyone is really grey and that makes for more complicated stories - whic are the best ones. Literature is far ahead of animation, and you are right on the spot for advising people to read.Michael Spornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02018522723674960270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post-90711744715827126652008-11-08T15:22:00.000-08:002008-11-08T15:22:00.000-08:00Hi Dave. This may come as a surprise but am not a ...Hi Dave. This may come as a surprise but am not a big Miyazaki fan. The one of his I like is LAPUTA (CASTLE IN THE SKY) which I like very much. I enjoyed parts of PORCO ROSSO too. Generally not my cup of tea though.<BR/><BR/>Weirdo: Classic Myths--absolutely yes. I have recently been re-reading them, in a mid century volume by Edith Hamilton. Very enjoyable. Another author named Walter Wangerin did a prose version of the Old Testament called THE BOOK. Very interesting from a cultural standpoint. <BR/><BR/>BTW: Disney's HUNCHBACK was one of the most pleasant working experiences I have yet had. Great crew, great creative leadership and the film was one I am happy to be associated. To the extent it is kind of a good vs evil melodrama, that seems to be the road every other film version I've seen took with it. Victor Hugo himself implied that he was taking a break from his usual contemporary social commentary to write a gothic tragedy. Hardly light hearted but also more of diversionary than usual. He is said to have written it a great speed, from a single jug of ink. Allegedly he almost titled it: "WHAT THERE IS IN A BOTTLE OF INK."Will Finnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01297122976077620877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post-8900341850299977902008-11-08T10:25:00.000-08:002008-11-08T10:25:00.000-08:00Holy cow, this gives a guy plenty to think about. ...Holy cow, this gives a guy plenty to think about. There does have to be a balance in the story between trying to make the antagonist too sympathetic and making the protagonist too bland. I say that other things to look to are old Greek myths. They're full of "protagonists" who have many unlikeable characteristics. The gods are full of spite, lust, and greed that you could hardly understand why they were the protagonist. Also, look at Thedeus. He starts out s a great hero, but he eventually turns into a perverted old man by the end of his life. However, we still read the stories because the characters are INTERESTING. I don't think many executives understand that.Eric Noblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05872046921674512158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post-47583030523984195452008-11-08T09:12:00.000-08:002008-11-08T09:12:00.000-08:00"I don't write much about story"----Wow, Will, I w...<I>"I don't write much about story"</I><BR/><BR/>----<BR/><BR/>Wow, Will, I wish you would write about story more often. That one's a keeper. <BR/><BR/>I forget : are you a Miyazaki fan ? <BR/><BR/>I happen to like the fact that Miyazaki's films rarely have a "black hat vs. white hat" sort of mentality. Sometimes the presumed villains turn out differently than you expect at the beginning and often the conflicts are internal conflicts within the protagonist's themselves ... they are "their own worst enemies" as you pointed out about Mowgli or Pinocchio.David https://www.blogger.com/profile/09728364431363413760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post-82272089303017278642008-11-08T08:11:00.000-08:002008-11-08T08:11:00.000-08:00Whoo Boy, Frollo was a toughie. In the original Vi...Whoo Boy, Frollo was a toughie. In the original Victor Hugo book there are 2 Frollo brothers. One is a forward thinking law student, the other is a demented priest obsessed with alchemy and also very racist against gypsies. To top it off he becomes highly physically attracted to Esmeralda in a warped and sadistic way. <BR/><BR/>Perfect Disney material, eh? <BR/><BR/>Our first marching orders from top management were: "Follow the book but don't make the villain a priest." This is hard because if he isn't connected to the church, he has no reason to be there or have a relationship to Quasimodo. We had to invent the prologue material to obligate our Frollo (who was a composite of the the two brothers from the book) to be visiting Quasimodo at the church every day. <BR/><BR/>The racial thing against the gypsies was difficult to flesh out, because over on this side of the pond, there really isn't an understanding of the ongoing plight of real Romany people, who they are, where they come from, or why they are so maligned (which continues today). <BR/><BR/>Obviously the physical lust for Esmerelda could only be hinted at and many felt this was illustrated too strongly even then. <BR/><BR/>Frollo in the movie, is really kind of a melodrama villain, in my opinion, because he kind of represents a laundry list of things that are indefensible. <BR/><BR/>Frollo (the priest) in the book is actually the main character (if there is one) and he is more interesting to me to be honest, because all his inner conflicts can be understood from the prose. It's quite a long book too.Will Finnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01297122976077620877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7128131605312127923.post-56101242255284604272008-11-07T19:46:00.000-08:002008-11-07T19:46:00.000-08:00How's the Frollo's case?How's the Frollo's case?deniseletterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07549486044473359842noreply@blogger.com